{"id":233,"date":"2005-05-25T00:05:00","date_gmt":"2005-05-24T22:05:00","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/www.boerenroem.nl\/wordpress\/?p=233"},"modified":"2005-05-25T00:05:00","modified_gmt":"2005-05-24T22:05:00","slug":"five-fold-2","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/boerenroem.nl\/wordpress\/2005\/05\/25\/five-fold-2\/","title":{"rendered":"Five-fold (2)"},"content":{"rendered":"

Much debate (more than I was aware of) is going on about the five-fold ministry<\/a>, especially the apostolic and prophetic ministry. Take a look for example at the discussion around apostolic ministry at Marc’s Messages<\/a>, the Super-apostle Detector<\/a> (ironically meant, but with an awful lot of truth in it?) and the Orlando Statement<\/a>. The sheer fact that such a statement is needed should tell us something is not right. The statement itself I find balanced and wise.
From a distance (not being very familiar with the pentecostal and charismatic movement) I recognise much of what is said in the introduction. I was raised in a ‘cessionalist’ church (the belief that the apostolic and prophetic ministry ceased to exist after New Testament times). In the exact same way as expressed in the Orlando Statement, I believe that those ministries still exist today and should be visible and recognised. But, from what I have observed personally and through others, I have questions about the way many pentecostal\/charismatic churches tie the five-fold ministry to the formal leadership in a church. As I said in my previous post<\/a>, there is a tendancy to think of these five ministries as the leadership framework for a church – if you’re the<\/span> prophet, you should at least be an elder but probably someone with even more authority. If you’re the <\/span>apostle, no doubt you’ll head up the whole church.
I’d be very reluctant to automatically link either of these ministries to position. They should be recognised based on their influence<\/span> or rather their spirit<\/span>, not on their power<\/span>. For example: I have seen prophets at work (that is: ministering) in different churches, and I would say that, generally speaking, a prophet should not lead a church. It would end up in a total mess where only vision is being cast and nobody knows what to do today. A recognised ‘lay’ prophet can minister to the church and its leadership and be of great value and influence.
Thinking one step further: the whole point of re-finding the five-fold ministry (particularly the apostolic and prophetic) was to introduce a dynamically balanced leadership model for the church. (Yes, I know, sorry for the unspiritual phrasing – remember that dynamic comes from dunamis = strong wind = Holy Spirit :-)) Many said that there was an overstatement of the shepherding and teaching ministry. Now it seems many are overstating the apostolic and prophetic, thus falling into the same trap of unbalance.
Interestingly, I do not read much on the ministry of the evangelist. Maybe this ministry has been understated throughout the years, without anyone noticing \ud83d\ude42<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Much debate (more than I was aware of) is going on about the five-fold ministry, especially the apostolic and prophetic ministry. Take a look for …<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_uag_custom_page_level_css":"","advgb_blocks_editor_width":"","advgb_blocks_columns_visual_guide":"","ngg_post_thumbnail":0,"jetpack_post_was_ever_published":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_access":"","_jetpack_dont_email_post_to_subs":false,"_jetpack_newsletter_tier_id":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paywalled_content":false,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":"","jetpack_publicize_message":"","jetpack_publicize_feature_enabled":true,"jetpack_social_post_already_shared":false,"jetpack_social_options":{"image_generator_settings":{"template":"highway","default_image_id":0,"font":"","enabled":false},"version":2}},"categories":[1],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-233","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-algemeen"],"aioseo_notices":[],"author_meta":{"display_name":"Mark","author_link":"https:\/\/boerenroem.nl\/wordpress\/author\/admin\/"},"featured_img":null,"jetpack_publicize_connections":[],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"","uagb_featured_image_src":{"full":false,"thumbnail":false,"medium":false,"medium_large":false,"large":false,"1536x1536":false,"2048x2048":false,"post-thumbnail":false,"bravada-featured":false,"bravada-featured-lp":false,"bravada-featured-half":false,"bravada-featured-third":false,"bravada-lpbox-1":false,"bravada-lpbox-2":false},"uagb_author_info":{"display_name":"Mark","author_link":"https:\/\/boerenroem.nl\/wordpress\/author\/admin\/"},"uagb_comment_info":3,"uagb_excerpt":"Much debate (more than I was aware of) is going on about the five-fold ministry, especially the apostolic and prophetic ministry. Take a look for …","coauthors":[],"tax_additional":{"categories":{"linked":["algemeen<\/a>"],"unlinked":["algemeen<\/span>"]}},"comment_count":"3","relative_dates":{"created":"Geplaatst 21 jaar geleden","modified":"Bijgewerkt 21 jaar geleden"},"absolute_dates":{"created":"Geplaatst op 25 mei 2005","modified":"Bijgewerkt op 25 mei 2005"},"absolute_dates_time":{"created":"Geplaatst op 25 mei 2005 0:05","modified":"Bijgewerkt op 25 mei 2005 0:05"},"featured_img_caption":"","series_order":"","jetpack_shortlink":"https:\/\/wp.me\/p63Qy-3L","jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"jetpack_likes_enabled":false,"jetpack-related-posts":[{"id":226,"url":"https:\/\/boerenroem.nl\/wordpress\/2005\/05\/01\/five-fold\/","url_meta":{"origin":233,"position":0},"title":"Five-fold","author":"Mark","date":"1 mei 2005","format":false,"excerpt":"Gave my first sermon in our church today. It went well, at least I got some positive feedback. Although it was my first speech in our current church, it was not my first speech ever. It was fun to see some people react surprised, asking 'if I had done this\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "algemeen"","block_context":{"text":"algemeen","link":"https:\/\/boerenroem.nl\/wordpress\/c\/algemeen\/"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":161,"url":"https:\/\/boerenroem.nl\/wordpress\/2004\/08\/26\/swiss-retreat\/","url_meta":{"origin":233,"position":1},"title":"Swiss retreat","author":"Mark","date":"26 augustus 2004","format":false,"excerpt":"Yesterday night I returned from Switzerland. I was invited to join the leadership of Campus f\u00fcr Christus (Agape's sister-ministry) in a two-day retreat. CfC Switzerland is in many ways similar to Agape NL, so Hans thought is was a good idea to visit them and to see what and how\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "algemeen"","block_context":{"text":"algemeen","link":"https:\/\/boerenroem.nl\/wordpress\/c\/algemeen\/"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":284,"url":"https:\/\/boerenroem.nl\/wordpress\/2005\/11\/13\/awi-convention\/","url_meta":{"origin":233,"position":2},"title":"AWI Convention","author":"Mark","date":"13 november 2005","format":false,"excerpt":"Today the AWI convention started. Yesterday I traveled to London, together with Alan Nagel (a Campus Crusade dinosaur from Texas) and a couple from Washington DC. I had planned to do a little sightseeing, but since I was still not feeling well, I went straight to the hotel and had\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "algemeen"","block_context":{"text":"algemeen","link":"https:\/\/boerenroem.nl\/wordpress\/c\/algemeen\/"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":775,"url":"https:\/\/boerenroem.nl\/wordpress\/2009\/02\/26\/watchmen-on-the-wall\/","url_meta":{"origin":233,"position":3},"title":"Watchmen on the wall","author":"Mark","date":"26 februari 2009","format":false,"excerpt":"Thursday: our first full day in Jerusalem. In the morning we join Bart Repko with his walk on the Jerusalem Wall. Bart and his wife Joke are Dutchmen who through their ministry 'Never Be Silent' go on the walls every day to proclaim, prophesy and pray for Jerusalem and the\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "Agap\u00e8"","block_context":{"text":"Agap\u00e8","link":"https:\/\/boerenroem.nl\/wordpress\/c\/agape\/"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":506,"url":"https:\/\/boerenroem.nl\/wordpress\/2007\/11\/14\/greeks-giants\/","url_meta":{"origin":233,"position":4},"title":"Greeks & Giants","author":"Mark","date":"14 november 2007","format":false,"excerpt":"This blog seems to turn into a travel blog, because my last update was on the trip to the States, and tomorrow I'll be off for another trip, this time to Greece. But in between a lot is happening as well, for which I do not always find the time\u2026","rel":"","context":"In "Agap\u00e8"","block_context":{"text":"Agap\u00e8","link":"https:\/\/boerenroem.nl\/wordpress\/c\/agape\/"},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":164,"url":"https:\/\/boerenroem.nl\/wordpress\/2004\/08\/29\/back-in-town\/","url_meta":{"origin":233,"position":5},"title":"Back in town","author":"Mark","date":"29 augustus 2004","format":false,"excerpt":"I'm back from Kandern. It has been a great time. I've had the opportunity to meet with a lot of people from the Agap\u00e8 European office and the Orlando international office. I am inspired in many ways to align our own ministry with Europe and the international movement. 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